Hey all! In what has become a tradition on my birthday, I bring a new interview translation. This time it's with Katsumata Ogura who is a pretty big deal in the Sunday editorial department, being an editor not only for Detective Conan but Komi Can't Communicate and Frieren: Beyond Journey's End as well! This interview is a little old, but it's still an interesting read.
As always the same disclaimers hold, I'm not a professional translator so there may be little mistakes here and there, and we do not permit rehosts without our approval in advance. Now then, let's get to making some hits.
The interview is located here
From humble beginnings with Osamu Tezuka, Kazuo Umezz, Rumiko Takahashi, Gosho Aoyama, Kazuhiro Fujita, Mitsuru Adachi, Takuya Mitsuda –many named artists have published series in Weekly Shonen Sunday.
What might be on people's minds now are the major reforms the current editor-in-chief Takenori Ichihara declared upon taking office in July 2015 –and now six years later, many popular works have been born in the pages of Shonen Sunday.
Today we interviewed two hit makers who have directed the current wave of Weekly Shonen Sunday: Katsumasa Ogura (Frieren, Komi) an Shunsuke Hara (Call of the Night, The Duke of Death and His Maid)
In this interview we discuss their thoughts in being editors and what to them is an interesting manga –or a Sunday-esque manga?
(Editor Note: This interview seems to just be with Ogura-san.)
---First tell us about the series you've been in charge of since joining the company (Shogakukan)'s Shonen Sunday editorial department.
Ogura: I joined Shogakukan in 2009, and like Hara I was assigned to the Shonen Sunday editorial department in my first year.
As for series I edited, my very first was Onidere by Crystal na Yousuke, and then after that MIXIM 11 by Nobuyuki Anzai. In the middle of my second year I became the editor for Detective Conan and worked with Aoyama-sensei for around four years. After that I was involved with launching Komi Can't Communicate, Hoankan Evans no Uso, Lisa no tabareraenai shokutaku, Night of the Outcasts, and Frieren: Beyond Journey's End. I was simutaneously in charge of Hiiragi-sama wa jibun wo sagashiteru, Magi, and Sokyuu no Ariadane as well.
It's hard to say what series left the biggest impression on me, but if I were forced to choose, I'd say Detective Conan. It was a series that I was in charge of for a long time despite being so young, so it's left a sense of awe and respect that's been imprinted on my being. (laughs) Most of my late twenties was dedicated to Gosho Aoyama and Detective Conan.
--Judging from what you said: “A little under four years from the middle of your second year” then that'd be around ten volumes around volume seventy?
Ogura: Yes, I was the editor from the ramen shop case in volume 73 to around the middle of Volume 86.
For my first year or so, my senior who acted as deputy editor also participated in the meetings with Aoyama-sensei until he became editor in chief. At that time Sera-chan (Masumi Sera) had become a topic of the meetings, and so had Toru Amuro and the Akai family. I also had a hand in the 15th movie: Quarter of Silence and the 18th movie The Dimensional Sniper. In the meantime there were other works such as Lupin the 3rd vs Detective Conan The Movie and The Disappearance of Conan Edogawa and the two worst days in history.
I was granted the opportunity to work on extravagant movies. I especially love Shuichi Akai, because I was able to work on movies like the aforementioned ones. It left a very strong impression on me.
Furthermore being able to work with big mangaka like Crystal na Yousuke, Nobuyuki Anzai, Gosho Aoyama, Hiroyuki Nishimori, Shinobu Ohtaka and Norihiro Yagi was incredible. They all had so much love for manga as an art form and had wonderful stories that I learned so much from.
After I gave my position as editor on Detective Conan to my successor. In my fifth year as editor I took over from my predecessor and was in charge of Tomohito Oda, who was set to begin serialization of Dejikon. About half a year after it ended, he created the oneshot of Komi Can't Communicate which ran in WSS. We then aimed for a serialization of the series which began in May of 2016.
The Birth of the Man with Three Faces
---Detective Conan was already a smash hit by the time you became editor. Was there any pressure on you when you took the job?
Ogura: Aoyama-sensei is very kind and friendly so it was very easy to talk to him. In a way I think of him as my other Dad. (laughs.) Conversely I figured since it was a already well known manga created by a nationally beloved mangaka that I'd never grow tired of it ---especially since I was only in my second year at the time. Of course I wanted to keep the momentum going and since I love Shuichi Akai and the Black organization, I talked with Aoyama-sensei and said I want to know more about who Shuichi Akai really is! I think I was the one who pressured him more than the other way around (laughs)
---In addition to that, Toru Amuro, Bourbon, Rei Furuya were created around the time you were editing the series, and then movie 22 Zero's Enforcer went on to shatter records in the box office back in 2018 which then lead to the creation of the spinoff Zero's Tea Time.
Ogura: Originally, Toru Amuro was simply a member of the Black Organization and that's it. There really wasn't a plan for him to be a part of the Public Police Force. Though Aoyama-sensei and I were both huge fans of the drama series SPEC directed by Yukihiko Tsutsumi which had recently aired at the time. So we often had conversations about how cool the Public Police force is. Not that we really understood a lot about them, and it seems like a difficult job, but it's still really cool!
--You two were super enthusiastic (laughs)
Ogura: Aoyama-sensei correctly thought that adding the element of the Public Police force to Toru Amuro would broaden the scope of Detective Conan so he probably was already considering ways to include it. I think back to when the draft of Amuro's first appearance was moving into the finalization form, Aoyama said “Ogura, I think I'm going to go ahead and make Toru Amuro a Public police officer. How do you feel about that?” I know for him it had to be difficult, but as a young upstart at the time I just replied “That's awesome!!” (laughs.) I figured he'd become popular due to him being a cool character, but I never thought fans would love him to this extent.
--What would you say is the biggest lesson you took away from working closely with Aoyama-san?
Ogura: Discerning whether something is good or interesting or not. Like, those phrases are pretty vauge to begin with and as a young editor I just judged based on whether I liked it or not –not that I can do something like that any more (lol).
Meetings with Aoyama-sensei and thinking of tricks came down to us watching movies, TV Shows, and anime together. Whenever there's a new season of Anime or Drama, or new movies come out, Aoyama takes notes of them based on his interest. He'd ask me if I've seen some of them before, and I was surprised at the perspective of people who draw manga that are undeniably popular have in regard to other media –to what they were fascinated by. Though overall I got to ask him a lot, and talk to him often so I had a wonderful time. (laughs)
That being said, I made sure to take note on what Aoyama-sensei thought was interesting was. He has a knack for judging such things, and he's been training and evolving for years all on his own. I tried to understand his standards, even if just a little. Obviously we don't always have the same point of view, but if we don't have a meeting of the minds, then it would be troublesome to edit Detective Conan.
Readers can decide what they do and don't like based on their individual standards, but when you're publishing in a magazine, it's essentially a company investment. In the end there are costs and time sunk into every manga magazine or volume and if they can't recoup those costs then the mangaka can't continue to do business and sell their stories. So it's more important than liking or disliking something, but what as many readers as possible will enjoy to the point of making a purchase.
As people what we like and dislike changes so there are standards that will see deviation, which is important to note. There's no other way but to do trial and error, but I keep in mind what I learned.
Seeking out 'Emotion'
--Tell us what you enjoy.
Ogura: I love movies and will watch anything despite time, place or genre. When I was a student, especially in high school, I would watch around 400 movies a year using money I got from part-time jobs. When I'm asked what my favorite movies are, I'd say Cinema Paradiso, GoodBye Lenin! Knocking on Heaven's Door, and Smoke. Of course, aside from movies, I love manga and novels as well.
There was a book reseller in my neighborhood as well as a book rental place by my house so I read a ton of manga. Not limited to Sunday of course, but (Shonen) Jump, Magazine and Champion too. I also read Seinen manga as well. I think I'm just a fan of stories. Nowadays, there are more documentaries than fictional stories, I feel.
--Why do you like stories?
Ogura: To be frank, it's likely because I wanted to escape reality. People who have a sense of fulfillment, whatever it is probably don't get as much out of stories. Gravitating to stories comes from feeling like something is lacking within themselves or having complexes or things they worry about. I myself think I'm missing something, which is why I'm drawn to stories. Though perhaps nowadays due to it being an occupational hazard, I've come to look at stories from a bird's eye view. It's because of my work as an editor that I find myself exposed more to documentaries than fictional stories.
--What do you mean?
Ogura: To cut to the chase, stories are things that package and deliver emotions. Manga as a medium is a conduit to spark emotions, and by putting emotions into manga, the story, and feelings are amplified by the artwork, characters, and dialogue. This is what reaches readers and moves them emotionally. The better they are at this the more people it'll reach and then it becomes commercially viable, which is of course much more profitable for an artist. As such an editor's job is to evangelize the manga –to help create manga and send it out into the world.
So basically, emotions are what make a story. I watch a ton of documentaries because they depict facts and I think those emotions are closer to real life. When I invoke an emotion to an author –the more real it is, the more persuasive it becomes.
--I see, so you're saying that the material's “pure emotion” is at it's peak.
Ogura: Yes. I don't have much in the way of hobbies, and it shows since ever since I started working here my seniors have said “You need a hobby” (laughs) I'm always thinking about manga, stories, authors, and readers to a point where when I'm not working I try to log off of manga mode and reach a zen level of mental clarity. There's a game I used to play with Nishimori-sensei that I've been playing alone secretly for years. (laugh)
What did you think back then?
--Hara-san mentioned that he observes the things that he enjoys from a fixed, unchanging period and feels the ebbs and flow of the times. How much do you consider the time period when you're creating manga?
Ogura: I do so unconsciously of course, but I try not to ruminate on it specifically. The reasoning for this is despite everything, I feel the essence of what it is to be human hasn't changed much from the past to now, and the unique charm of being human flaws and all is the most important. Rather than capturing the spirit of the times, I think what's critical is having a grasp on the unique condition that is being human. That has more bearing on connecting the core of a work to others than being current. Like, it would be awesome obviously if I could grasp the societal quirks of humanity and weave that into being socially adept, but I'm not great at that. If an author expresses interest in that, I'll do my utmost to brush up on the subject when we meet, but that's not something I'm actively seeking out.
What lies at the center, is the crux of what we like, is emotion. That's what I want to figure out the best way to convey, and is always at the forefront of my mind. Manga has images, which makes emotion easy to depict, but the story and setting are merely information. What makes it truly interesting is the human being and their emotions behind the story. I think that's what people when they say “drawings have character.”
--As an editor, how do you approach this?
Ogura: There are many things that can't be conveyed in words, so what I do is first ask the artist to draw whatever it is they want without commenting. When it goes to the draft stage that's when I take a look and see if the emotion is showing through the illustration. Now keep in mind, even if the core emotion is there, that's not the same as being fun or interesting to read. So then I break that into further pieces and communicate that to the author when we meet.
--Hara-san said your favorite phrase is “What did you think back then?”
Ogura: Really? I see (laughs) It's a common thing with Mangaka, especially rookies that they have an idea of what they want to draw but aren't sure how to go about it, or that they aren't sure exactly what they want to draw. So that's why I might go to that phrase (laughs) by asking them questions like “Why did the character say this here?” or “What did you feel when you drew this” I hope that helps them figure out what the emotional core is. There are also times where something is so plain to see that you miss it entirely, so when I say “Dig deeper into this” or “This part feels very genuine, so delve into that” they sometimes respond “It felt too obvious so I didn't draw it.”
Frieren Beyond Journey's End was a megahit and carefully depicting universal emotions.
--When I was reading Frieren Beyond Journey's End I felt that emotion you were talking about. The starting point is simply that “a heroic figure died, one w ho was part of a party who once fought together.” I don't have as much background to whom these people are and what they meant to Frieren, or what Frieren meant to them. The first chapter is structured in a way where the emotions are found by the protagonist through her journey. and this is why it's important to carefully convey each emotion. I found it refreshing that such emotions were clearly depicted.
Ogura; Right? Kanehito Yamada-sensei is excellent at meticulously conveying that.
--How did Frieren come to be?
Ogura: Yamada-sensei has been drawing and writing for some time, but his previous work Bocchi Hakase to Robot Shoujo no zetsubouteki Utopia didn't sell well despite being a good manga. Yamada-sensei is the type who wants honest criticism, so I told him point blank that the art may be the reason, so I recommended he start over with drawing oneshots. Unfortunately, that lead to a six-month dry spell instead. So I suggested he try a one-shot gag manga based on his debut work; The Heroic Demon King. Figuring that a comedy would be easier to work with since it's either funny or it isn't. To my surprise, he came back with a manuscript that was identical to Frieren's first chapter. I thought “Okay but this isn't very funny at all” (laughs) but despite this the story had promise so I showed it to Tsukasa Abe-sensei and asked “Do you think you could do the art for this oneshot?”
--I wonder how the request for a comedy manga ended up becoming....well the first chapter of Frieren. In any case, I thought the concept of a story that starts from the end is very novel. How did the serialization happen from there?
Ogura: I got Abe-sensei's character artwork and started thinking that we may be onto something. So my next suggestion was doing a short web-based serialization, since it was the first time the two of them had teamed up I wanted them to practice a bit. Though the two of them (Yamada and Abe) probably still thought of the series as a one-and-done. So if that had been approved I would going to have the series be about five chapters and maybe sneakily get it approved, for a serial that way if the impressions from readers was good.
The problem was at the time that I wasn't sure people would really get it with only a short story. The concept of a “story that starts from the end of another adventure” might have been what Yamada-sensei wanted to depict, but I couldn't wrap my head around it at the time. The atmosphere and characters are magnificent, but I didn't think that we'd be able to convey that clearly from one chapter. In a way, I thought that made it more interesting.
Honestly as a young editor with only the first chapter in my hands I couldn't confidently say “yeah this is ready for serialization” which Yamada-sensei agreed with after the second chapter was complete (laughs) Like the work itself is interesting and unique but was it enough to support the idea of being serialized? Not so sure. Though in retrospect, I'm glad we were able to take the series to the end goal of serialization.
--When submitting the proposal did you as the editor think “This will be a hit?”
Ogura: Yes. There were three times I felt like I had pulled it off.
The first was when I saw the character art Abe-sensei drew of the characters as I mentioned. The second was when we had another meeting and Yamada-sensei sent me the manuscript for chapter two. The third and last was when Abe-sensei redrew the manuscript for chapter two so we could get a proposal together. When we were talking on the phone, Abe-sensei said they cried while drawing the chapter. “This is genuine emotion” I thought. “Since the illustrator was moved so much while drawing it.
So when it came time to hand over the first chapter as a proposal, I submitted it as a “Short term serial” on the web, and that was okay'd, but then when we submitted chapter two I modified it slightly and said “The second chapter of the weekly serialization proposal for the magazine.” As if he had already signed off on it. (laughs) I figured “Hey he already liked what he saw and the series is good so it'll be fine! Besides, it had been a while since we submitted chapter one, so he'd probably forgotten that it was only meant to be a short serialization. So I selfishly prioritized my own wishes as an editor (laughs) But to my relief the editor-in-chief liked it and gave it the okay before returning it.
--Whoa, (laughs) but then that means it had a positive response. How did the readers feel?
Ogura: My thought is that the readers' impression would be best if we could print the first two chapters at the same time, and survey results were good. I was happy that the type of series it is was conveyed successfully, and it certainly feels like readership has only ballooned since then. When it was selected in the “Kono manga wa sugoi” for a second place ranking at the end of 2020 and received the “Manga Taisho” in March, the readership exploded, and it was clear people recognized how great the series is.
The reaction within Shogakukan itself was also impressive. When volume one went on sale, the people in the sales department said they're printing 80,000 copies for the first run which is unusual for unheard of authors. Like, even if the polling results are great, 20,000 is usually what it gets, and even then I have to negotiate for more –around 40,000. So when they just flat out said 80,000 from the get-go I was like “Wait you can print that many?” (Laughs) Even Yamada-sensei was aghast since he had been serialized before --- “What if it doesn't sell?” he asked. (laughs) But I was overjoyed that even the company had our back.
What do Komi and Frieren have in Common?
--Komi Can't Communicate also got a ton of attention when it was an oneshot before serialization. A Silent Heroine was unique and refreshing.
Ogura: That started from a stray comment from Oda-sensei during a meeting. “What do you think of communication sickness”? He asked. After his first serialization ended we often just got together to chat, like about movies such as April Fools, and pretty women eating gyudon alone at Yoshinoya, but they probably weren't doing much for his productivity. (laughs)
So after that, he said; “I'd like to draw a manga themed after communication disorder.” At first the protagonist was meant to be male, but when he changed it to a female the scope of the story broadened and the ever-popular “Komi-san” was born. I even remember when he called me to say that he wanted to make the protagonist a girl. He sounded very confident about this change.
--I feel like it was a big decision to include “commu-shou” in the title.
(TN- The Japanese title for the series is Komi-san wa comusho desu. Which is more akin to “Komi has a communication disorder.)
Ogura: Yeah, it took a lot of gumption on our parts. The legal department said we shouldn't do it, but after Oda-sensei and I discussed it more, we came to the conclusion that if we couldn't use that title, then we'd might as well scrap the story, and decided to go forward but to be respectful of using the term “social anxiety.”
Fortunately for us, readers understood what we meant to convey, and we've received many responses from people commenting on how cute Komi is, to how she's very relatable. Moreover, what's impressed me is the overseas reaction to the series. From what I hear, the North American adaptation of the series is doing particularly well. Social anxiety is a part of the “emotion” that many people have experienced, irrespective of country or upbringing.
“What is Communication Disorder”? It refers to a condition in which has difficulty socializing with others. Or it refers to a person who has this condition. It is important to note that just because one has difficulty socializing with others does not mean that one does not want to communicate.”
---What do you think if anything, Komi Can't Communicate and Frieren: Beyond Journey's End have in common?
Ogura: Huh....Can't say I ever thought about that.
--I apologize if that question was too blunt.
Ogura: Oh, no, no, you're fine. I speak about the emotions but really? It might just be something as simple as “Taking interest in others.”
Komi has a social anxiety disorder, but she wants to be friends with everyone. Her secret goal is making 100 friends –and Tadano who sits next to her could have ignored this and priortized having a normal high school life if he wanted to, but he took an interest in Komi, and in turn she began to develop feelings for him because of this interest.
Frieren in turn became interested in Himmel after he died. Himmel on the other hand had always been intrigued by Frieren –for 50 years in fact. Frieren realizes this as she travels and meets other people who knew him along the way.
A good example is when a mother cooks for a child. She cuts the ingredients into little pieces so the child can eat them easily. Moms think of their children while cooking which is an important task –almost one that feels like it's natural, but when you act not in self-interest but for the sake of someone else, or having someone else think of you it well, sounds nice doesn't it? (laughs) But it's truly a wonderful thing that both Frieren and Komi depict this so well.
Unlike food, clothing, or shelter, you don't need a story to live. You can live without them because they don't sustain you, but yet, we still crave them. This is why I think a moving story can have a sense of preciousness to it. Of course there are exceptions....in my first year at Shogakukan a senior editor asked me what kind of series I want to work on, and I answered “A series with a gentle lie” because the lie is told with someone in mind. It's a heartfelt thought I think is precious.
I can tell immediately. “He's is going to be big.”
--Actually, before we sat down for this interview I asked Hara-san “What kind of Editor is Ogura-san?” What kind of person is Hara from your point of view?
Ogura: I think he's the type of editor who knows right away what he likes and finds interesting. He might use trial and error but to me he has no hesitation in judging whether story, characters, illustration, pacing, directing, etc are good.
I admire this about him. If we had joined Shogakukan at the same time, Hara would have been the guy who had a head start and achieved glory before I did, and I would have paled in comparison unable to figure out what I think is interesting. (laughs) In that way, I'm glad I'm the senior and he the junior.
Hara is very clear and confident. Mangaka who work with him can rest assured that if he likes something, it's sure to do just fine, and he's very easy to work with. He's extremely talented –and humble, since if you tell him I said this he'll flatly deny it. (laughs)
---Hara said “I like dirty stuff, so Ogura in comparison is the genuine article.” Maybe that's what you see in him?
Ogura: Maybe. For exampl,e if I worked at a talent agency and discovered someone I'd ask what kind of talents do they have, what are their strengths, how do we market him...etc. I think I would search for the core and ruminate on it. Meanwhile, Hara's the type who can look at a person like this and immediately discern what's great about them and how to capitalize on it. He's very clear on what he wants and understands.
--It's true. Even with manga, you can make a judgment on whether you'll like something from the cover and nothing else.
Ogura: That's totally right. As an editor, I don't think either of us has the right answer, but that's what Hara has that I don't.
--I can't wait to pick up the next issue of Sunday! Thank you for taking the time out to talk to us!
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